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Fury3 has worse quality than Nano, is there firmware fix?
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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:48 am    Post subject: Fury3 has worse quality than Nano, is there firmware fix? Reply with quote

The photo comparison below shows the problem in detail. I'm running a lower resolution mode on the monitor, then I just turn off the monitor and swap out the Nano for the Fury3 without changing the mode, and the Fury3 results in some horrible ringing artifacts which distort the video signal.

The blue box is the monitor reporting the mode. Not sure why the frame rate changed.

Is there any fix for this?

I'm assuming the problem is that Fury3 added some kind of sharpening filter which has negative lobes. I need a way to turn that filter off.

Is there any firmware change which can fix this?

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jb007



Joined: 19 Jan 2016
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The hdfury 3 does not add any filters. It just converts digital to analog. The hdfury 3 also do not alter refresh rate.

What I see in the pic is ringing. It can be caused by bad cables or interference.

It may even be the power supply that is powering the hdfury3.
Try powering the hdfury 3 a different way.
Maybe you can test turning off image centering on the hdfury3 as per the manual or sticker.
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HDfury



Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 1560

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes please confirm you have 2A power supply in use.

Can you give us the exact resolution too.

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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it is ringing, looks like a 9 tap horizontal filter.

Here is how I tested,

(1.) Working setup with the Nano, take photo.
(2.) Turn off CRT.
(3.) Replace the Nano with the Fury3.
(4.) Turn on the CRT, take photo.

I've tried both powering the Fury3 from the USB cable and power plug which comes with the Fury3, and directly using the USB cable which was just powering the Nano. Both provide the exact same result.

Also get the exact same result running from a Mac and a Linux box, which subtracts out the remote possibility the graphics driver did something. And the shots show the modes are close enough between the two devices (and they are the same driven H sync rates) such that the GPU isn't doing any up-sampling which could introduce ringing (for example on NVIDIA).

Also the ringing stays pixel sized as I change the resolution, the ringing lines up with source pixels.

So the only conclusion left is that,

(1.) Either this specific Fury3 is broken.

(2.) Somewhere in the product change between Nano and Fury3, something was changed such that the result is ringing. I'm driving in resolutions like 640x480 at 120Hz which is not a common mode. Likely at the typical peak resolutions, most people wouldn't notice the issue. But it is currently unusable for me.
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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Power supply looks like 2 amps:

Model No: RSS1001-100050-W2
Output: 5.0V 2.0A 10.0W MAX

See the issue on multiple CRTs driven with different VGA cables and different power cables.

Listing of modelines I'm driving with,

# 320x240 @ 120.00 Hz (GTF) hsync: 30.96 kHz; pclk: 12.38 MHz
Modeline "320x240_120" 12.38 320 328 360 400 240 241 244 258 -hsync +vsync

# 400x300 @ 120.00 Hz (GTF) hsync: 38.64 kHz; pclk: 19.78 MHz
Modeline "400x300_120" 19.78 400 416 456 512 300 301 304 322 -hsync +vsync

# 512x384 @ 120.00 Hz (GTF) hsync: 49.44 kHz; pclk: 33.22 MHz
Modeline "512x384_120" 33.22 512 536 592 672 384 385 388 412 -hsync +vsync

# 640x480 @ 120.00 Hz (GTF) hsync: 61.80 kHz; pclk: 52.41 MHz
Modeline "640x480_120" 52.41 640 680 744 848 480 481 484 515 -hsync +vsync
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admin
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Joined: 16 Dec 2010
Posts: 489

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Timothy,

did you try with the rgb centering dip OFF too ?

What i can tell you for the moment is that Nano and HDfury3 do not share the same base design at all. they are 2 fully different design.

How is the verdict at 1080p60 when you compare both ?

So yes, may be this unit have a problem that's why i would like your view at 1080p.

Otherwise we have to run same test and check it out.

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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case these matter, here is what I'm testing with,

Dip switch : setting,
1 : on (RGB)
2 : on (sync passed)
3 : off (passthrough)
4 : on (0-255 depth)
5 : off (shift disabled)
6 : on (power led on)
7 : on (1080p allowed on port 2)
8 : on (1080p allowed on port 1)

I'm always running with DIP switch #5 to off, which is documented as disabling RGB Shift ability.

I just tried with DIP switch #5 on, and I can verify I get the same results. I tried the L and R buttons, and my CRT sees this as a mode change (blanking the screen). So I can only assume this is actually adjusting the H-sync region instead of resampling the image left/right.

The CRTs I use don't have ability to do 1920x1080 at 60 Hz.

The one I'm driving right now peaks at 1280x1024. The ringing is still visible up to 1024x768. The dot pitch isn't good enough on this monitor to see the ringing close to 1280. Here is the mode line for 1024x768,

# 1024x768 @ 80.00 Hz (GTF) hsync: 64.32 kHz; pclk: 88.50 MHz
Modeline "1024x768_80" 88.50 1024 1088 1200 1376 768 769 772 804 -hsync +vsync

I'll try holding a set resolution and adjusting vsync see if it has any effect on the ringing.
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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Driving with 800x600 at 60 or 90 Hz doesn't seem to have any effect on the ringing. Here are the modelines I ran with,

# 800x600 @ 60.00 Hz (GTF) hsync: 37.32 kHz; pclk: 38.22 MHz
Modeline "800x600_60" 38.22 800 832 912 1024 600 601 604 622 -hsync +vsync

# 800x600 @ 90.00 Hz (GTF) hsync: 56.88 kHz; pclk: 60.07 MHz
Modeline "800x600_90" 60.07 800 840 928 1056 600 601 604 632 -hsync +vsync


I have 2 unopened original boxed Fury3's that I purchased from another source (Monoprice.com) when the HDFury.com site when down. The one I'm testing with was purchased on HDFury.com less than a month ago.

So I have the possibility to do a direct comparison between units purchased from different locations. However I'd like to not open those boxes if I'm going to need to return or sell them and go back to Nano devices.
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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like I have ability to return the unopened HDFury3's and HDFury4 I got from Monoprice, so I'm returning.

This other HDFury3, the one I'm testing with, I'd be willing to ship back to you for testing.

I've had great results in the past with the Nano, probably just order some more of those.
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HDfury



Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 1560

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Timothy,

Can you make a comparison at 1080p between nano and HDF3 ?

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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can you make a comparison at 1080p between nano and HDF3 ?


That is not physically possible as the CRTs I have do not have the ability to run 1920x1080 resolutions.

I'm running VGA CRTs built around 1996.

It is not possible to do comparisons around 1280x960 because the VGA CRTs do not have a fine enough dot pitch or low enough beam size to actually see pixels at that resolution.

As I posted before, the effect is visible on every mode I try as long as I can physically see pixels. And the effect is always the same.

Where [-] is a pixel with a negative filter lobe, and [+] is a pixel with a positive filter lobe, and [C] is the center pixel, I always see the following, around any strong contrast vertical feature on the screen,

[+][-][+][-][C][-][+][-][+]

As resolution goes up the ringing area on the screen decreases proportional to pixel size, however the number of rings stays the same.

Likewise when resolution goes down, the ringing area increases proportional to the increase in pixel size, and the number of rings stays the same.

I'll try to setup another test swapping a CRT (VGA) and LCD (HDMI without the HDFury3) to verify again nothing is being applied by the GPU driver.
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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did some more tests this time on a newer high-end BenQ LCD which has a VGA input along with HDMI 1.x and HDMI 2.0 inputs. This BenQ has ability to center signals under native resolution instead of scaling.

(1.) Connect HDFury3 VGA output to LCD, driven at 640x480x120Hz.
(2.) Also see the ringing problem.
(3.) Disconnect the VGA output, move the HDMI input from the HDFury3 to the LCD, ringing problem goes away.

This is another validation that the ringing is not being introduced into the HDMI signal from the computer.

(A.) On the LCD I can confirm I see ringing even in 1280x960 modes when output from the HDFury3. This confirms that the ringing still exists even when a CRT doesn't have the ability to resolve the given resolution.

(B.) On the LCD I see ringing both in 640x480x60Hz and 640x480x120Hz modes when output from the HDFury3. Suggests the ringing does not depend on refresh rate.

(C.) And since this LCD will accept a 1920x1080x60Hz or 1920x1080x30Hz signal from the VGA input out from the HDFury3, I tried both those modes, and they both do NOT have ringing.

I did capture pictures of this, but don't have time to post right now.
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admin
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Joined: 16 Dec 2010
Posts: 489

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess he meant, compare on another display that accept higher signal via RGBHV, like that HDMI LCD you mentioned, may be it have a vga input ?
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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
like that HDMI LCD you mentioned, may be it have a vga input ?


Yes the BenQ LCD has a VGA input, and as I posted previously I get the same results on that display from HDFury3 as I do on CRTs.

The problem appears to be that when the HDFury3 is driving lower than 1920x1080 resolutions that it introduces ringing. Resolutions under 800x600 are exceptionally bad.

Again what I would like to know, is if the ringing is being caused by some digital filter of which a firmware change can adjust the filter coefficients of, or is the ringing something which cannot be fixed without a hardware change (like a property of the DAC).
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admin
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Joined: 16 Dec 2010
Posts: 489

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes that's the info we are trying to get from you

If HDfury3 performs better than Nano GX for 720p/1080p and only worst for low resolution.

If HDfury3 performs much better visually at 720p/1080p then unit should be fine and we have a firmware work to do to support lower res a better way.

if it doesn't look much better than nano for 720p/1080p then unit have an issue.

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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After work today (5+ hours from now), I will run more tests on the Nano and Fury3 using the LCD with 1920x1080 and 1280x720 and report back the findings.

What I'm looking for as "performs better" can be defined as "has the same result as driving the monitor from a old VGA output graphics card".
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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Below is a comparison of 720p60hz and 1080p60hz as driven from both the Nano and the HDFury3 into the BenQ LCD. Based on these results,

(1.) Nano looks pixel perfect from 720p and down. Same as output from a classic VGA graphics card. This is the ideal desired result.

(2.) Nano at 1080p has some filtering issues, looks like an energy conserving filter was not used. Looks different than classic VGA graphics output.Judging how the artifacts are different from the Nano and HDFury3, I'm guessing the problem isn't a product of the LCD (because then artifacts would be very similar).

(3.) HDFury3 is re-sampling the image at all resolutions. Nothing is pixel perfect, so worse than Nano at 720p and lower. Looks different than classic VGA graphics output.

(4.) But HDFury3's re-sampling looks to be energy conserving and does indeed look better at 1080p.

(5.) HDFury3 introduces ringing in the re-sampling. Looks different than classic VGA graphics output.

So I don't ever run 1080p, it's always 720p or lower, and the desired output is exactly what a standard VGA graphics card would output (no artifacts like ringing or re-sampling).

The images,

This shows the test setup. The BenQ LCD takes in VGA signal, then renders it *without* scaling, centered on the screen. This makes it possible to do direct comparisons of various resolutions. I can also view the mode infomation (in the shot) to verify the mode,



Next the Nano at 720p, pixel perfect,



Now the HDFury3 at 720p, the ringing is visible, not pixel perfect (see red arrow),



Now Nano at 720p showing bitmap text, again pixel perfect,



Next the Nano at 1080p showing bitmap text, can see some re-sampling artifacts. Note how the text gets darker in places, that suggests the filter is not energy conserving (red arrows),



Next the HDFury3 at 720p and then 1080p both of these looks similar, and both seem to have energy conservative resampling based on the 2nd image, but none are pixel perfect,





Finally showing Nano at 1080p on normal GUI view, artifacts are not as visible,



And lastly the HDFury3 at 1080p on normal GUI view, does seem a little more "filtered",

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HDfury



Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 1560

PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, i'll ask devs to look at this.
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admin
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Joined: 16 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, how long is your analog cable output when using HDfury3 in the above test ?
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TimothyLottes



Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried both CRTs with fixed longer cables (like say 30cm) and CRTs with no fixed cable that I can drive using the short connector which ships with the HDFury. Didn't notice a difference.
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